OPPO Mechanical help sought

"505Turbeaux" (505turbeaux)
03/28/2014 at 12:05 • Filed to: None

First off, my brain is totally full of fuck. I bought a 1989 Audi 100 quattro a few weeks ago and all was running smooth. A little bit of hard starting and pinging on heavy load, wouldnt idle below 1200 rpm. Fine, Ill clean out the breather, IAC and intake and replace all the vacuum lines. Was dumping quite a bit of oil through the breather into the intake too. Cleaned and tightened all up, new plugs, and it is taking a long time, 1 minute of crank to lazily fire off. OK so maybe the timing was tweaked to make it run ok for all the dirty lines and intake. Now on these cars the timing is handled by the ECU for the ignition and injectors, so all you do it set the thing to TDC, set the marks on the dizzy to factory settings, and off you go. The dizzy was way off, a few cylinders worth from factory pips. So I go turn it over till the cam is on the mark, where the hell is the 0 on the flywheel? Turn it over some more, there it is, 2 cylinders away. OK, so I need to turn it over one more crank revolution to line it up. No dice at all, the lines are all screwed up. I am under the assumption someone did the timing job by the angle of the #1 cam and by using a dowel in #1 cylinder to find TDC, instead of by the marks. It appears the car is running 120 degrees off time. Anyone ever see this on a 5 cylinder? An even number cylinder count might make sense because it will run 180 degrees out. Cam and crank sprocket are keyed, as is the dizzy so I am not sure how the hell someone screwed it up. I am going to do the t-belt and water pump this weekend and see if I am correct. I just cant believe it is running like this. I set everything back to the way it was set up when I bought it but damn...

DISCUSSION (30)

JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t > 505Turbeaux
03/28/2014 at 12:14

Wow. I've seen 4cyl engines timed out 180 degrees before, but never anything as massively fucked as what you describe here. It's like what someone with a strong theorhetical knowledge of how 4-stroke internal combustion engines work, but absolutely NO concept of modern engine markings or nescasarilly even any mechanical aptitude at all would do... if they had never seen the internet, or a factory service manual for the vehicle in question. I think Carl up there said it best.

AutoSavant > 505Turbeaux
03/28/2014 at 12:15

Wow! Not sure how that's possible!?!?!

505Turbeaux > JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t
03/28/2014 at 12:17

yeah exactly. I have seen a 4 run a full timing belt change interval 180 degrees out. I should have known by the relocation of the alternator stabilizer bracket. Instead of being from the block to the adjuster bracket, it was from the A/C mounting bolt, mounted to an upside down adjuster bracket. Fixed that right quick

crowmolly > 505Turbeaux
03/28/2014 at 12:17

Yeah, sounds like the timing is way off. You may need to tear it down further and establish a baseline.

505Turbeaux > crowmolly
03/28/2014 at 12:19

Yeah I was going to pull the valve cover at least to make sure someone didnt put a 4 cylinder pulley on it (possible but keyed differently), and verify O on the crank against piston position before doing the belt.

crowmolly > 505Turbeaux
03/28/2014 at 12:22

It's amazing how botched this stuff can get. I worked on a small block chevy that hat 60* of timing at idle. Sixty fucking degrees! At idle! No mechanical advance! I thought my timing gun was broken.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > 505Turbeaux
03/28/2014 at 12:26

I think it's possible for 120 degree intervals to *almost* coincide with Cam In The Wrong Placerson's Disease on an even-numbered engine. However, I'd expect it more to be *almost* 180 degrees out, because if you look at individual cylinders, their rate of turn and rate of cam operation is the same as an even-numbered engine. The only thing the 120-degree firing order spacing would meaningfully affect in that sense would be the dizzy. If the dizzy is close enough to two cylinders' spacing off (240 degrees), it may actually have been close enough to 180 to fire. Maybe.

puddler > 505Turbeaux
03/28/2014 at 12:27

billions and billions. timing should be BTDC, right? I've wanted to dig into a 5-banger for a while now, but haven't had the oppo-tunity. best of luck. get pics this weekend.

505Turbeaux > crowmolly
03/28/2014 at 12:27

it RAN 60 out???

I havent checked mine for timing much with the gun, because I shouldnt have to. I did hook it up and tapped the block a few times with a hammer to verify knock sensor operation

crowmolly > 505Turbeaux
03/28/2014 at 12:28

I have no idea how. None. I didn't think it was possible. I guess stuck weights or something and it actually did have mech advance all in way too low. Looking back that probably had to be it. We pulled the distributor out and just started over with a new one.

505Turbeaux > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
03/28/2014 at 12:29

yeah rough numbers on degrees coming from me here. I knew it was a bit under 180 is all on the dizzy and the crank. And the dizzy took some twisting and revving to get it to where it would run "correctly" with minimal ping

505Turbeaux > crowmolly
03/28/2014 at 12:31

I have worked on a few cars factory set to 24* btdc at idle but those were made for it. 60 on an SBC??? GOD DAMN

505Turbeaux > puddler
03/28/2014 at 12:32

I will. The 5 banger n/a's, turbos and 20V all run ignition timing off the knock sensor/ECU. Set them exactly at TDC and all should be good in the world...supposedly

crowmolly > 505Turbeaux
03/28/2014 at 12:36

I wish I had pictures of the entire setup. Band aids everywhere, extraneous vacuum lines, etc.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > 505Turbeaux
03/28/2014 at 12:38

No reason to make it any more complicated than it should be - somebody eyeballed it at ~180 degrees out, giving positively zero fucks about factory markings. To make that run, the dizzy had to be ~240 degrees out. I think. Compound with being massively off of actually being 180 degrees (see the above lack of fucks), and as a five cylinder it seems more confusing than it had to be. Realistically, if there were a way to check and confirm it at *exactly* 180/240, it would make less difference, but likely your EFI system was looking at the CPS and going "WTF?!?!" I think. I'm struggling with it myself.

505Turbeaux > crowmolly
03/28/2014 at 12:39

I can only imagine...I have seen some janky shit before on SBC's. though that one might take the cake

505Turbeaux > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
03/28/2014 at 12:41

yeah as far as I know the injectors fire off the hall sensor and the TDC timing pin on the flywheel. If it was carbed it would be not as big an issue. Struggle is totally the word for it...

CAR_IS_MI > 505Turbeaux
03/28/2014 at 12:43

I. don't. know.

I will say I once put together a V8 and had 1 head 180* off, and miraculously did not damage anything, it didn't run, but it did turn over and nothing hit anything else...

I am not really sure how this could have run at 120* off without it being a complete dog and getting passed by John Deers.

505Turbeaux > CAR_IS_MI
03/28/2014 at 12:45

it is doggy for sure, but will get up to 75 eventually and go down the highway. All 100q's are pretty doggy, but this one takes the cake. Hence why I wanted to degunk everything. A pushrod V8 you are talking about?

area man > 505Turbeaux
03/28/2014 at 12:46

I just looked up most of the terms you used here and learned a lot, so thanks!

crowmolly > 505Turbeaux
03/28/2014 at 12:47

Well, here's another. I once bought a core 350 from a guy in VA. He said it didn't run right after his rebuild. Stock 350 out of a '75 pickup.

Had ONE piston that was new and of course it didn't really match the other 7. The cam he had in it was a Comp 282XE which was way too large.

But it was a 4 bolt main block and $50, so I did not care.

Louros > 505Turbeaux
03/28/2014 at 12:52

You bought an uncommon 25 year old German car; it not running correctly shouldn't fill your mind with fuck. It should be expected.

505Turbeaux > crowmolly
03/28/2014 at 12:53

haha yeah it is worth that in scrap if it was a 2 bolt!

505Turbeaux > area man
03/28/2014 at 12:54

anything to help! :)

CAR_IS_MI > 505Turbeaux
03/28/2014 at 12:54

Nope. SOHC. lol

505Turbeaux > Louros
03/28/2014 at 12:55

Audi N/A 5 cylinders are some of the best engines out there for durability and reliability odd enough. I have only owned 7 of them and have never seen one this screwed up and still running

505Turbeaux > CAR_IS_MI
03/28/2014 at 12:56

haha when did you realize the error, when you saw the cam sprockets pointing different directions ?!? LOL

CAR_IS_MI > 505Turbeaux
03/28/2014 at 13:01

No, Ford uses the same cam sprocket on both cams, they all have the same two marks, a line and a dot 180* apart from one another. In '05 they built it so that one cam lined up with the line, the other the dot, and then in 06 they changed it so both sides were the same mark, then in 07+ they changed it all (completely) again. Well I was working on an 05 build motor using the 06 shop manual (because I did not know they changed the markings at that time) and followed the instructions... when it would not start I called my contact at Ford Racing who informed me of the change.

505Turbeaux > CAR_IS_MI
03/28/2014 at 13:07

ah damn me I thought you installed THE HEAD 180 degrees off! lol

CAR_IS_MI > 505Turbeaux
03/28/2014 at 13:14

Oh lol, I mean I've made some mistakes, but that would be impressive even by my standard